DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast

29: Building Businesses Outside of Your Day Job: Part 1 of 2 With Dr. Saira Ahmed

“Especially as physicians we get caught up in that analysis paralysis. We’re waiting for things to be just perfect and they usually never are. And so, you just have to kinda get started.” -Dr. Saira Ahmed

 

In today’s episode, Jen sits down with Dr. Saira Ahmed to discuss entrepreneurship and building businesses alongside a career as a physician. Aside from working full time in Utilization Review in cases related to her sleep medicine specialty while simultaneously holding down a managerial role running a busy practice and seeing patients in that practice one day per week, Dr. Ahmed also has a real estate business, a school that trains people to become phlebotomists, an e-commerce business selling scrubs and other medical accessories, and she and her husband run a non-profit organization through which they do multiple community service projects throughout the year. Wow. Tune in to hear how she got started and how she keeps her life balanced, and learn tips for starting and succeeding at your own side hustle today.

 

Dr. Ahmed went to New York Institute of Technology for her undergraduate degree. Attended Ross University School of Medicine for Medical School and did her residency at Seton Hall University Internal Medicine Residency Program. Her current affiliations are Jefferson Health System and Salem Memorial Medical Center. You can find her on instagram.

 

 

Get One-on-One Coaching with Coach Gabriella Dennery MD

Get One-on-One Coaching with Master-Certified Coach Jill Farmer

 

Excerpts from the show:

 

“I basically knew from the beginning I was going to be a doctor. My grandfather was a doctor and none of his kids became doctors. My father was a pharmacist. He was supposed to be a doctor and he actually dropped out of medical school so when I was born I think my grandfather was like, ‘You're going to fulfill my dreams.’ And…I kind of grew up with that in my mind. I couldn't really imagine doing anything else anyway. It was something I wanted also. So I guess ever since growing up I just knew I was going to be a doctor.” -Dr. Saira Ahmed

“I did not ever think that I was going to be an entrepreneur or go into business at all. Pretty much my whole professional career has been focused on becoming a physician and getting into residency, getting through residency and fellowship. I started thinking about entrepreneurship when I was an attending, in my first year of being an attending. My first job after fellowship, I worked as a hospitalist and it was really awesome because there's a huge learning curve when you go from being a fellow to becoming an attending. But after a year of doing that I felt like the learning curve had really plateaued and I felt I had pretty much learned everything there was to learn in that position. I was starting to think, ‘Ok, I've got one year in as an attending. What is my future plan now and what do I want to do?’ So I think that's when the whole entrepreneurship thing kind of started in my mind, because I knew I wanted to do something on my own. Whether that was having a practice or, I actually had a plan to open a wellness, not really a spa, but a wellness place. Like a retreat, and I actually still have those notes. It's like from ten years ago. I had a binder that I used to jot down notes and ideas and things that I would want in my retreat. But luckily, what happened is the guy I was seeing at the time proposed and we got married and then that was history and luckily he turned out wanting a lot of the same things I wanted so we kind of started our entrepreneurial journey together.” -Dr. Saira Ahmed

“I joined his practice and I worked in his practice for probably around five years and then eventually I decided I'd rather just take more of a management role. I still see patients in the practice one day a week just to keep up my clinical skills because it's something I don't want to lose. But clinically I am not the biggest provider there anymore. I'm more of management now. And I got my own job doing utilization review, which I felt was more related to sleep medicine which is my specialty. So I thought it was a win-win for me and it also gave me the opportunity to focus on other things like our other projects that we have going on.” -Dr. Saira Ahmed

 

 “So you're working full-time in your utilization review?” -Dr. Jen Barna

 

“Yes.” -Dr. Saira Ahmed

 

Okay, so you're doing that and in addition to the utilization review full-time work,  you have a real estate business is that correct?” -Dr. Jen Barna

 

“Yes.” -Dr. Saira Ahmed

 

“And you have a business training people to become phlebotomists?” -Dr. Jen Barna

 

“Yes we have a little school that we started a few years ago.” -Dr. Saira Ahmed

 

“Okay, and then you have an e-commerce clothing store that sells scrubs right?” -Dr. Jen Barna

 

“Yes.” -Dr. Saira Ahmed

 

“This is really interesting because you've got such diversity in your business portfolio as well. You also have a not-for-profit organization too, right?”  -Dr. Jen Barna

 

“Yes.” -Dr. Saira Ahmed

 

“So tell me, which of these did you start first?” -Dr. Jen Barna

 

“The nonprofit came first. So what happened after I got married, I moved to South Jersey where my husband was already settled. And one year into our marriage, you know, we were both moderate Muslim. We do practice and you know we like to go to mosque on Fridays and we do practice Ramadan. And with our busy schedule and our schedule only getting busier and busier and the closest mosque was about 25 to 30 minutes away and we were just like there's got to be an easier way for us to continue to practice our religion and still do everything else that we do. So we decided to open a non-profit and open an Islamic center in our town. So we spoke with the mayor. We said ‘listen we have a small community here you know we've got professionals and we've got business owners and it would just be so convenient if we can have a place to pray here.’ At the same time, we felt with everything going on in the news and stuff and how sometimes we are portrayed, I don't know we felt the need to show a positive outlook on Islam. You know, we are doctors, we are taxpayers, we are good citizens and we wanted to do some education and at the same time we wanted to do community service. So we do multiple projects throughout the year. During Christmas we gave out a hundred hot meals to community members and they don't have to be part of our mosque and they don't have to be Muslim or anything, we just want to give back to the local community. So we thought the best way to do that is by starting our own nonprofit. We spoke to the mayor at the time saying this is what we want to do and she was supportive, so we did.” -Dr. Saira Ahmed 

 

DocWorking believes the time has come to prioritize the health and wellness of physicians.

Professional coaching is transformational. Elite athletes, award-winning actors and top-performing executives all know this, which is why they embrace coaching to achieve such extraordinary success. Leading corporations also know this, which is why they encourage coaching for employees at every level. Smart leaders leverage the power of coaching to achieve outcomes that are meaningful, measurable, and attainable.

Our Coaches Will Show You How!

 

 

We have exciting news! Our live course, STAT: Quick Wins to Get Your Life Back is coming soon! Life is too short to be stretched so thin. Do you want more time to focus on what matters most to you? Our power packed plan fits easily into your busy day! Coaches Gabriella and Jill have taken all their best strategies from coaching hundreds of physicians over multiple years and folded them into one efficient course. You can easily practice these bite-sized strategies on your timeline: anytime, anywhere. Are you ready to invest in yourself, reclaim your time and minimize stress? Click here!

 

To learn more about DocWorking, visit us here!

 

Are you a physician who would like to tell your story? Please email Amanda, our producer at Amanda@docworking.com to apply.

 

And if you like our podcast and would like to subscribe and leave us a 5 star review, we would be extremely grateful!

 

We’re everywhere you like to get your podcasts! Apple iTunes, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Google, PlayerFM, ListenNotes, Amazon, YouTube, Podbean

 

Some links in our blogs and show notes are affiliate links, and purchases made via those links may result in small payments to DW. These help toward our production costs. Thank you for supporting DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast!

 

Occasionally, we discuss financial and legal topics. We are not financial or legal professionals. Please consult a licensed professional for financial or legal advice regarding your specific situation.

 

Podcast produced by: Amanda Taran

 

28: Letting Go of Guilt When Leaving Medicine

“That’s the lesson I’ve learned about self acceptance, that everyone has a function. And maybe it’s even bigger than we think it is. And being able to say ‘Okay, I’m going to find what that is for me...’” -Coach Gabriella Dennery MD

Get One-on-One Coaching with Coach Gabriella Dennery MD

Get One-on-One Coaching with Coach Gabriella Dennery MD

We’ve all felt guilt in our lives over something, maybe small or perhaps big. But some feelings of guilt last longer than others. Such as the guilt over leaving a career that you have spent the majority of your life studying for, training for and working at. Now add helping to heal people and change lives to the mix. What do you do if you are feeling pulled in a different direction? Stay to avoid the guilt of leaving? Or can you learn how to let go of that guilt and move forward in whatever way life is leading you? Yes! You can. And Gabriella is here in this episode to share her story of guilt with leaving her childhood calling and her story of healing.  

Excerpts from the show:

“So when you were talking about guilt in leaving clinical medicine, tell us a little bit more about how that topic came up.” -Gena Jefferson

“I burned out. I really did. I was in primary care medicine, my specialty was internal medicine, and I did that for seven years. But I can say is that really the burnout process for me was started in residency, and it got carried forward and it kind of piled on and piled on and piled on, and just got to the point where I knew I had to make a change if I wanted to live a different kind of life. Now did it have to mean me leaving medicine? For some people it doesn't, but for me it did. Leaving clinical medicine. Really, I got to the point where to save my own life I had to make that decision and so that's what kind of pushed me out of medicine. But I have to say that it wasn't just a push, there was a pull.  And so on the other hand I'm also a musician and composer, and I've been that my entire life almost as long, if not as long, as I've wanted to be a doctor. So you know, there came a point where I was starting to perform more and I was learning about African drumming and I was teaching and, you know, that was pulling me out. I really wanted to pursue that more full-time and I figured if not now, when? So there were these two kind of competing reasons, well not competing, I guess they complement each other. Because it was time to leave.” -Gabriella Dennery MD

 

“It took about ten years to make the decision to leave. It's not something that ever happened overnight. And for various reasons, there was a lot of back-and-forth, and one of them was feeling guilty. I grew up with that obligation and that responsibility to other people and so that was the kind of culture of the household, you know. You did for others before you did for yourself. That's how I grew up. And for me, as I said, medicine equated to helping people, and that's the way I saw it and that’s how I grew up around it.  So to leave it was kind of breaking the equation. At the same time, I knew that I was absolutely exhausted. I was exhausted by the procedural stuff, by the administrative stuff which was not what I thought doctoring was about. I was also exhausted by this whole idea and perhaps because of my pick of specialties. I picked internal medicine because I enjoyed working with adults and I still do. At the same time back in the day, it was called chronic illness management. For me, it's like, ‘well that's not why I became a doctor.’ I thought I was helping people get better. You know chronically managing illness, it didn't make sense to me, like philosophically it didn't make sense to me. Eventually they changed the lingo to ‘Healthcare Maintenance’ but basically it's the same thing. So there were those kind of pushes. The administrative exhaustion. It's like, ‘But this is not what I signed up for when I said I wanted to be a doctor! It's not what I signed up for!’ Then there was this whole idea of maintaining illness and it just didn't make sense to me. I couldn't reconcile that logically or emotionally in any way, shape or form. So that waged war on my spirit over years. And year after year after year of health maintenance for chronically ill patients…I’d had my fill.”  -Gabriella Dennery MD

 

“It was funny I was going back home for a visit and it was my father's second wife, you know, my parents were divorced when I was a teenager. She said, “Something is different about Gabriella.” Then she came up to me and she said, “Something is different about you.” and I said, ‘Really? What? What is it?’ She said I looked happy, and I said ‘Oh boy,’ and then she went to my dad and said “Gabriella looks happy! Something’s different about her,” and I heard her say that. So I eventually did let them know. But I said it in a very particular way. I went to my dad first and I told him. I said, “You know, what I really want from you now are words of support and encouragement because I have enough worry of my own, and enough fears of my own, and I don't need yours too. So please, if you can't say anything good then please keep it to yourself or talk to my siblings about it but not to me.” I made the same request of my mother, and I was very respectful and very polite but I made my boundary very clear because I knew my mom was a worry wart and I know dad didn't say much but I know he worried too. I said, “I'm a 40-year-old woman, I'm grown and I will be fine. In the meantime, all I want from you are words of encouragement. I just need your encouragement.” And you know what happened? That's the beauty about this, and making it clear to them as to what I wanted from them, not just what I didn't want but what I wanted from them, that they actually respected it and they did it.”  -Gabriella Dennery MD 

 

DocWorking believes the time has come to prioritize the health and wellness of physicians.

Professional coaching is transformational. Elite athletes, award-winning actors and top-performing executives all know this, which is why they embrace coaching to achieve such extraordinary success. Leading corporations also know this, which is why they encourage coaching for employees at every level. Smart leaders leverage the power of coaching to achieve outcomes that are meaningful, measurable, and attainable.

Our Coaches Will Show You How!

 

We have exciting news! Our live course, STAT: Quick Wins to Get Your Life Back is coming soon! Life is too short to be stretched so thin. Do you want more time to focus on what matters most to you? Our power packed plan fits easily into your busy day! Coaches Gabriella and Jill have taken all their best strategies from coaching hundreds of physicians over multiple years and folded them into one efficient course. You can easily practice these bite-sized strategies on your timeline: anytime, anywhere. Are you ready to invest in yourself, reclaim your time and minimize stress? Click here! 

 

To learn more about DocWorking, visit us here!

 

Are you a physician who would like to tell your story? Please email Amanda, our producer at Amanda@docworking.com to apply.

 

And if you like our podcast and would like to subscribe and leave us a 5 star review, we would be extremely grateful!

 

We’re everywhere you like to get your podcasts! Apple iTunes, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Google, PlayerFM, ListenNotes, Amazon, YouTube, Podbean

 

Some links in our blogs and show notes are affiliate links, and purchases made via those links may result in small payments to DW. These help toward our production costs. Thank you for supporting DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast!

 

Occasionally, we discuss financial and legal topics. We are not financial or legal professionals. Please consult a licensed professional for financial or legal advice regarding your specific situation.

 

Podcast produced by: Amanda Taran

27: Interview with Dr. Ysaye Barnwell: Singer and Composer From Sweet Honey in the Rock, Author, Actress, Educator

“You know, I try to figure out:  What is not right here? And some things can’t be fixed. And then, if it can’t be fixed, I have to decide, do I want to stay here and be a part of this or is there a way that I can use my energies in a more positive way?” -Dr. Ysaye Barnwell, Retired Professor at Howard University College of Dentistry, musician, composer, actress, author.

 

Get One-on-One Coaching with Coach Gabriella Dennery MD

Get One-on-One Coaching with Master Certified Coach Jill Farmer

 

 In this episode, Coach Gabriella Dennery MD sits down with renowned artist and professor Dr. Ysaye Barnwell. Dr. Barnwell has enjoyed a successful career as a professor of speech pathology at Howard University College of Dentistry, and simultaneously traveled extensively worldwide as a member of the African American a cappella band, Sweet Honey In the Rock (1979-2013). In addition to composing many of Sweet Honey In the Rock’s songs, Dr. Barnwell has been commissioned to create music for dance, choral, film, and stage productions.  Dr. Barnwell's acting credits include a principal role on a television series called A Man Called Hawk and a role in the 1998 film Beloved. Barnwell released a solo recording of stories and song, Um Humm, in 2000. She has also written a children's book with CD, No Mirrors in My Nana's House.  A second children's book and CD set was released in March 2008: We Are One. 

 

Dr. Barnwell earned her bachelor's and master's degrees in speech pathology from State University of New York at Geneseo, and a PhD in speech pathology from the University of Pittsburgh. She earned a Master of Science in Public Health from Howard University. Wikipedia

She is an incredible woman with a wealth of knowledge to share.

Excerpts from the show (in no specific order):

Coach Dr. Gabriella: “What led you to a doctorate in speech pathology and a professorship at Howard University?”

Dr. Ysaye: “When I was about twelve years old, I went to my first play on Broadway and it was about Helen Keller. I never forgot how I was consumed by that. The things that drive me now and have driven me all my life were:

•  How do you work with people who have differences where society would demand that they somehow or other deal with it?
• Or, my own sadness of being enveloped in music all the time, and knowing that there are people who will never hear it. Is there a way to compensate for that? Is there a way to compensate for the skills that they don't develop the way in which (so-called) “normal” people would develop them?

So sign language was so fascinating to me, and lip reading was so fascinating to me. I wanted to share all of the auditory things that I had grown up with all my life with people who somehow don't have access to that. When I chose my major in college, I thought I wanted to go into deaf education, but then I realized that there were all of these other communicative problems that people have. I don't like doing one thing, (because) it's just going to help one person. It could help everybody, so I went into speech path and I learned about all kinds of facial abnormalities. It's just been my life. I've had this kind of span of things that I've been interested in, and I've kind of poked my head in every now and then to see what I can learn, what I could offer,  etc. So I've had a really enjoyable life.” 

 

“Then on top of all that to be in Sweet Honey in the Rock and then, you know, say to myself, ‘Okay so what else can I bring to this group? Excuse me, there are people who can't hear you. Can we add an interpreter here? Sure.’ So I became the interpreter and a singer. Then I realized, wait a minute, this is not working for me because there are five voices in this ensemble and we are adding a sixth (the interpreter). I cannot do two voices at the same time. If I was the lead on every song that would be different, but I'm not, and that's cool and I like what I do in the background. But I can't sign what the lead is singing when I'm doing a background thing. So that was the beginning of Sweet Honey in the Rock using a sign language interpreter as an integral part of the group.” 

 

Coach Dr. Gabriella: “Was there any point where you thought maybe you shouldn’t do that (be a professor while a singer, composer and traveling with a band), but you should just settle down and do what everybody else does? Was that ever a question for you?” 

 

Dr. Ysaye: “No, that was never a question. Everything seemed to fit together for me, which is really weird but true. Even in terms of being a songwriter, because you know I did a post-doc in public health and I was in Sweet Honey in the Rock at the time and that's when I wrote “More Than a Paycheck” because we had been invited to sing with steel workers and different conventions and things like that and for me all of that began to come together. Well, so how can I sing to this group and not share what I've just learned with other folks who don't realize what the commonalities are? But if you write a song like “More Than a Paycheck”, you know, where everything I'm doing is more than the paycheck I'm getting and I am collecting things that are hazardous to myself or dangerous to myself and others or things that kind of make relationships a little bit difficult. I mean we all do that and so “More Than a Paycheck” for me is about exploring and discovering what's positive and negative about what I'm exploring. Can I make a change in it or should I just leave it alone? And those are really my questions. You know, I get involved in things and I see what it is. If I'm going to leave, I want to leave positively or else I have to figure out ways to make it work not only for me personally but for the whole community that it's part of.” 

 

Correction: During the recording, it was mentioned that Dr. Barnwell holds a PhD in Speech Therapy. She holds a PhD in Speech Pathology. 

 

DocWorking believes the time has come to prioritize the health and wellness of physicians.

Professional coaching is transformational. Elite athletes, award-winning actors and top-performing executives all know this, which is why they embrace coaching to achieve such extraordinary success. Leading corporations also know this, which is why they encourage coaching for employees at every level. Smart leaders leverage the power of coaching to achieve outcomes that are meaningful, measurable, and attainable.

Our Coaches Will Show You How!

 

We have exciting news! Our live course, STAT: Quick Wins to Get Your Life Back is coming soon! Life is too short to be stretched so thin. Do you want more time to focus on what matters most to you? Our power packed plan fits easily into your busy day! Coaches Gabriella and Jill have taken all their best strategies from coaching hundreds of physicians over multiple years and folded them into one efficient course. You can easily practice these bite-sized strategies on your timeline: anytime, anywhere. Are you ready to invest in yourself, reclaim your time and minimize stress? Click here!

 

To learn more about DocWorking, visit us here!

 

Are you a physician who would like to tell your story? Please email Amanda, our producer at Amanda@docworking.com to apply.

 

And if you like our podcast and would like to subscribe and leave us a 5 star review, we would be extremely grateful!

 

We’re everywhere you like to get your podcasts! Apple iTunes, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Google, PlayerFM, ListenNotes, Amazon, YouTube, Podbean

 

Some links in our blogs and show notes are affiliate links, and purchases made via those links may result in small payments to DW. These help toward our production costs. Thank you for supporting DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast!

 

Occasionally, we discuss financial and legal topics. We are not financial or legal professionals. Please consult a licensed professional for financial or legal advice regarding your specific situation.

 

Podcast produced by: Amanda Taran

26: Physician Burnout: Proactive Steps You Can Take Today

“I think if any of these symptoms start showing up you may say, ‘Jill, should I start paying attention?’ Yeah, I think so. I think it’s time to pay attention. It doesn’t mean you need to panic. It’s just, let’s pay a little attention to this and see if we can turn the direction of our ship so to speak.” -Master Certified Coach Jill Farmer

Get One-on-One Coaching with Master Certified Coach Jill Farmer

Get One-on-One Coaching with Coach Gabriella Dennery MD

 

Physician burnout. It’s a hot topic lately and for good reason. Maybe you’ve experienced burnout, or maybe you know a colleague or another clinician who is dealing with it. Perhaps you’re sensing impending burnout and want to know how to avoid it happening to you. You’ve come to the right place! In this episode, Master Certified DocWorking Coach Jill Farmer covers the three main signs of provider burnout to help you identify it in yourself or a colleague and then she tells us what we can do about burnout. If you are a busy medical professional, you definitely want to tune in to this episode! 

 

 

Book/reference related to this episode:

“Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle” by Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski

Workbook For Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle

 

Excerpts from Coach Jill in today’s show:

“So I’ll start with a story about a physician client that I’ll call Stacy. She came to me and she said she was exhausted no matter how much she slept. She was feeling frustrated and negative about everyone and everything at work and to top it all off, recently her supervisor had told her that her work wasn’t really up to par. I immediately said ‘Aah, Stacy you’re burned out.’ She asked how I knew and I told her it was a classic case and she had just literally laid out the three most common symptoms of burnout. I’m going to tell you more about those in a couple of minutes. It was really in the summer of 2019 when the World Health Organization made it official and called burnout a bonafide syndrome that it started gaining some more attention. Not just around physicians but kind of across the board in business. The dollar figure of $322 billion a year was given to the cost of burnout to business, and while the cost of burnout to business is important, I’m more concerned about the cost that it takes on individual people. The people losing their zest for life, their passion for doing work that matters and their ability to be in meaningful relationships both in work and outside of work. So I think I want to focus a little bit more on that.”

 

“So another physician client I’ll call Ron had a story about losing an entire night’s sleep because of a perceived slight of a colleague and he even said a year before if something like that would’ve happened he would’ve taken a run, blown it off and moved on. So we’ve got those symptoms of exhaustion and negativity which creates a hyperactive stress response that we describe in a little more detail. Then the third thing that we really look for is when performance workplace efficacy is decreased. That’s the way it’s described for those who are the kind of professionals on the lookout for burnout. What do we mean by workplace efficacy is decreased? I don’t mean that you’re not perfect all the time. You’re not supposed to be. Perfectionism can be another contributing cause to burnout. But we are talking more about spending a lot more time blaming or shaming yourself or other people. Withdrawing from responsibilities, taking much longer to get things done, experiencing a lot of what productivity experts might call contaminated time. That is where when you are work and you’re thinking and distracted about things that have to do with home or things outside of work, and when you’re at home, you’re constantly thinking about things that have to do with work. So you’re kind of contaminating the separation of those two things.”

 

“A lot of things have been written in the last few years about the causes of burnout. In general, one of the things that gets pointed to most often is when we are in high pressure/low control situations, when there is no break in pressure or kind of a generalized lack of autonomy, and when we get in situations where we just feel like we’re busy all the time and we cannot step off that hamster wheel. So we know that high pressure/low agency circumstances are common in medicine. Particularly when you are working in highly scheduled environments, depending on your discipline. The number of people that you’re seeing every day is often completely out of your control. So you’re like, ‘Well great, that’s just part and parcel, it’s a condition of my work that’s going to be required so am I destined for burnout?’ No. The thing that I think is important to remember here is even though that high pressure/low agency situation can be a big cause of burnout, the other thing that we do have agency over and that I often see physicians forget is when they get outside those work hours. When outside of those work hours, they subconsciously put themselves in situations where they have high pressure and low agency. So they will say yes to all kinds of additional projects. In academic medicine, ‘Yes, I’ll write that paper, yes I’ll give that talk, yes I’ll come do this, yes I’ll join this board, yes I’ll volunteer.’  So they end up inadvertently or subconsciously creating in that time outside of work situations where they again have other people’s deadlines, other people’s priorities, other people’s emergencies become theirs, as opposed to leaving some open space in that time outside of work.”

 

DocWorking believes the time has come to prioritize the health and wellness of physicians.

Professional coaching is transformational. Elite athletes, award-winning actors and top-performing executives all know this, which is why they embrace coaching to achieve such extraordinary success. Leading corporations also know this, which is why they encourage coaching for employees at every level. Smart leaders leverage the power of coaching to achieve outcomes that are meaningful, measurable, and attainable. Our Coaches Will Show You How!

 

 

We have exciting news! Our live course, STAT: Quick Wins to Get Your Life Back is coming soon! Life is too short to be stretched so thin. Do you want more time to focus on what matters most to you? Our power packed plan fits easily into your busy day! Coaches Gabriella and Jill have taken all their best strategies from coaching hundreds of physicians over multiple years and folded them into one efficient course. You can easily practice these bite-sized strategies on your timeline: anytime, anywhere. Are you ready to invest in yourself, reclaim your time and minimize stress? Click here!

 

To learn more about DocWorking, click here!

 

Are you a physician who would like to tell your story? Please email Amanda, our producer at Amanda@docworking.com to apply.

 

And if you like our podcast and would like to subscribe and leave us a 5 star review, we would be extremely grateful!

 

We’re everywhere you like to get your podcasts! Apple iTunes, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Google, PlayerFM, ListenNotes, Amazon, YouTube, Podbean

 

Some links in our blogs and show notes are affiliate links, and purchases made via those links may result in small payments to DW. These help toward our production costs. Thank you for supporting DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast!

 

Occasionally, we discuss financial and legal topics. We are not financial or legal professionals. Please consult a licensed professional for financial or legal advice regarding your specific situation.

 

Podcast produced by: Amanda Taran

25: How Meditation & Mindfulness Can Change Your Life with Dr. Antonia Stephen

“That was really when it started for me, when I came out of the lab having done some exploration of Jon’s (Jon Kabat-Zinn) work and done some meditation. At that point if you can believe it, it was cassette tapes that Jon had been kind enough to give me. I came out of the lab a completely different person. I was actually having fun being a surgical resident. I was tired, you know I can’t say I didn’t have a bad day but I laughed with my colleagues. I had a great time. And I will share with you, Jill, that many many people, including my superiors and my residency director, noticed a huge change.” Antonia Stephen MD, Surgeon, Massachusetts General Hospital

 

In the last episode in this week’s series on meditation and mindfulness, Jill sits down with Dr Antonia Stephen to discuss how meditation and mindfulness can change your life. Dr. Stephen shares her story with us and I challenge you not to be inspired. Let us know if you adopt a meditation and mindfulness practice of your own and let us know how it goes. We love to hear from you!

 

 Dr. Stephen is a surgeon and Surgical Director of Wellness at Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital. 

 

Dr. Antonia Stephen received her medical degree from Harvard Medical School, completed her general surgery residency at Massachusetts General Hospital, and her surgical fellowship at the Cleveland Clinic, before joining the surgical staff at Massachusetts General Hospital in the Division of Surgical Oncology, where she specializes in surgery of the thyroid, parathyroid and adrenal glands.

 

Books related to this episode:

 

"Meditation Is Not What You think: Mindfulness and Why It Is So Important" by Jon Kabat-Zinn 

"Falling Awake: How to Practice Mindfulness in Everyday Life" by Jon Kabat-Zinn

"Wherever You Go, There You Are: Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life" by Jon Kabat-Zinn 

"Full Catastrophe Living (Revised Edition): Using the Wisdom of Your Body and Mind to Face Stress, Pain, and Illness" by Jon Kabat-Zinn 

 

Excerpts from the show:

 

“Why did you come to be interested in meditation and mindfulness as it relates to your work and life? Start back at the beginning. When did you first become interested in this?” -Jill Farmer

 

“Like many things, I had exposure to the concept of meditation and mindfulness really as a kid. I grew up next door to Dr. Jon Kabat-Zinn who really is one of the modern fathers of mindfulness and who was instrumental in bringing mindfulness and meditation practices to western culture... I kind of knew it was there, I sort of knew what he did but not really. But I was aware of it and ...I would say that the moment that really grabbed me for the first time was when I was a teenager, and I happened to be a rower. I rowed in college. I was outside our house one day and Jon was leaving for the airport and I asked him where he was going and he said, ‘Well I’m going to work with the men’s U.S Olympic rowing team.’ Of course, that was fascinating to me because I had to assume that if the men’s Olympic rowing team was hiring Jon, paying him and flying him, I think at the time he was going out to California, that Jon was going to make them go faster and perform better. You know, make them win. That’s usually why Olympic rowing teams hire people, so that was interesting to me.”-Antonia Stephen MD

 

“For those of us who aren’t familiar as much with his work, can you give us just a little bit of a thumbnail about who he is and what he does?” -Jill Farmer 

 

“Absolutely. He actually is a PhD. I think he was a graduate student or was working on his PhD at MIT and heard some lectures on mindfulness and meditation and was really fascinated with this. And what Jon did is look at this technique and he was interested in it and he started working initially with patients at UMASS Medical Center. Patients with medical issues such as hypertension and some mental health issues like anxiety and depression. He founded something called the MBSR clinic which was really the first of that kind in the United States, which is mindfulness-based stress reduction. He demonstrated that with these classes and with this center, which I recently read was actually started in a basement at UMASS, that these patients had improvements and were able to stop medications. He had subjective improvement and objective improvement. And as you mentioned, he actually published, studied and wrote about this and that was really one of the hooks that got western culture into his techniques.” -Antonia Stephen MD

 

“I think we spend very little time in that process examining why we’re doing things. What do we love about the idea of being a surgeon or a doctor? What do we love about the idea of going to medical school? If anybody had ever asked me those questions, I would have had absolutely no idea how to answer them. I think it was really my first few years of residency where they needed to be answered. If I’m going to be sleep deprived, if I’m going to work this hard, if I’m going to get up in the middle of the night, what’s my purpose? What’s my passion? I don’t think that I had ever had an opportunity to explore that. I think that can come naturally to some people depending on who they are in terms of their personality, in terms of what environment they’re in and who they spend time with and explore these things with. But for many, if not most of us, it’s all about the measuring stick getting to the next thing and I think that I found myself in a place where I really needed to examine that. So I tried some therapy, which I think is great, but as a surgical resident with the time commitment, the days and hours that therapists work and the expense was just not really feasible in terms of any sort of long-term plan. So I thought I would check out Jon’s book  and I picked up the book and started reading and that was really when it started for me.” -Antonia Stephen MD

 

DocWorking believes the time has come to prioritize the health and wellness of physicians.

Professional coaching is transformational. Elite athletes, award-winning actors and top-performing executives all know this, which is why they embrace coaching to achieve such extraordinary success. Leading corporations also know this, which is why they encourage coaching for employees at every level. Smart leaders leverage the power of coaching to achieve outcomes that are meaningful, measurable, and attainable.

Our Coaches Will Show You How!

 

We have exciting news! Our live course, STAT: Quick Wins to Get Your Life Back is coming soon! Life is too short to be stretched so thin. Do you want more time to focus on what matters most to you? Our power packed plan fits easily into your busy day! Coaches Gabriella and Jill have taken all their best strategies from coaching hundreds of physicians over multiple years and folded them into one efficient course. You can easily practice these bite-sized strategies on your timeline: anytime, anywhere. Are you ready to invest in yourself, reclaim your time and minimize stress? Click here!

 

To learn more about DocWorking, visit DocWorking.com

 

Are you a physician who would like to tell your story? Please email Amanda, our producer at Amanda@docworking.com to apply.

 

And if you like our podcast and would like to subscribe and leave us a 5 star review, we would be extremely grateful!

 

We’re everywhere you like to get your podcasts! Apple iTunes, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Google, PlayerFM, ListenNotes, Amazon, YouTube, Podbean

 

Some links in our blogs and show notes are affiliate links, and purchases made via those links may result in small payments to DW. These help toward our production costs. Thank you for supporting DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast!

 

Occasionally, we discuss financial and legal topics. We are not financial or legal professionals. Please consult a licensed professional for financial or legal advice regarding your specific situation.

 

Podcast produced by: Amanda Taran

24: How To Make Time for Meditation & Mindfulness with Dr. Antonia Stephen

“You know, getting down to brass tax here, something isn’t going to help your work unless you put the effort in, unless you make a commitment and that’s hard. So one thing you have to realize is there is going to be days when you really don’t feel like sitting down and doing this but you’re going to try and make yourself do it anyways because you know it’s going to help you.”-Antonia Stephen MD, Surgeon, Massachusetts General Hospital 

 

Tune in this week as we dive into all things dealing with meditation and mindfulness with Dr. Antonia Stephen MD. 

 

In our first episode on meditation and mindfulness we learned how it can make you a better physician. That sounds great, so now let’s delve into how to fit meditation and mindfulness into a busy schedule. Dr. Stephen is a surgeon and Surgical Director of Wellness at Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital. In this episode, Jill sits down with Dr. Stephen to discuss how to make time for meditation and mindfulness.

 

Dr. Antonia Stephen received her medical degree from Harvard Medical School, completed her general surgery residency at Massachusetts General Hospital, and her surgical fellowship at the Cleveland Clinic, before joining the surgical staff at Massachusetts General Hospital in the Division of Surgical Oncology, where she specializes in surgery of the thyroid, parathyroid and adrenal glands.

 

Books mentioned in the show:

 

“There’s Not Enough Time: …and other lies we tell ourselves” by Jill Farmer 

https://amzn.to/3fJaVwB

 

“Wherever You Go, There You Are: Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life” by Jon Kabat-Zinn  https://amzn.to/3dFdD3x 

 

“The Knowing-Doing Gap: How Smart Companies Turn Knowledge into Action” by Jeffrey Pfeffer and Robert I. Sutton  https://amzn.to/3wGdohx

 

 

Excerpts from the show:

 

“We can learn about it all we want. It sounds really good and all that but really to see the benefits and make it happen you absolutely need to start a regular practice. It’s hard when you’re really busy and it’s hard when you have a million other things that you feel like you should be doing. So I would say that the number one thing, which we touched on a little bit in our prior podcast, is to start small. Start real small. What if you challenged yourself to do five minutes once a week? It sounds so absurdly small that it’s kind of almost silly not to do it. But I think you know setting a really small goal and then having somewhat of a plan to keep you on task with it. A small journal or a little reminder on your phone. I would say the second thing, which is a relatively new thing, meditation and mindfulness has been around for a while but having an app on your phone and having a guided meditation where you fire up the app and it’s ten minutes or it’s five minutes, it’s whatever you know it is and that way it’s sort of all set up for you. Then you don’t have to worry about setting your own time or worry about keeping yourself on task because somebody is there sort of helping you do that. So I would say that those are two of the the things that I think are most helpful for busy people when they’re starting this type of practice. Number one, start really small and have an accountability system and download an app on your phone.” Dr. Antonia Stephen

 

 

“Can you give us the simplest explanation of the difference between meditation and mindfulness and how those two things are either different or similar to each other?”- Jill Farmer

 

“Yes, that’s a great question. Mindfulness is really the ability to be present in the moment of being here. Not in the runaway train mind. Not in the past thinking about what happened yesterday and what you would have said differently. Not thinking about your plans for the future. Not thinking about all the things you have to get done. Not thinking how angry you are at a colleague or a family member. It’s actually just being, and sometimes being present is feeling angry or whatever it is but you’re here, you’re in the moment. And when you’re that, you can really be anywhere but caught up in your thoughts. So you can feel your toes, you can feel your breath, you can look at the person in front of you and really look at them. You can hear the sounds coming from outside. That’s really being mindful.”- Dr. Antonia Stephen

 

“To be mindful, that’s the practice and that’s the meditation practice. The way that it was put to me, and this was actually directly from Jon Kabat-Zinn, is that you know obviously being present and being focused is a great thing. We all want to do that. I think that’s great but just calling upon yourself to do that when the stakes are high and when the pressure’s on and when you’re tired or sleep deprived or stressed or feeling threatened in any way, it’s too strong, you’re not going to be able to do it. By sitting and practicing meditation so that meditation is the practice so that you can be mindful that you are actually forming new neural pathways in your brain that are going to allow you to be mindful throughout your day and your life. Another way I’ve heard it described, which I absolutely love, is that our brain has ruts. We fall into those ruts because they’ve been there for many many years and reformed over time and to try to climb out of those ruts can be very difficult and even demoralizing and discouraging. So you have to form new ruts and those are the new neural pathways that you’re forming when you’re practicing meditation for those ten or twenty minutes or even that one minute and then those new ruts are there for when the time gets tough.”- Dr. Antonia Stephen

 

DocWorking believes the time has come to prioritize the health and wellness of physicians.

Professional coaching is transformational. Elite athletes, award-winning actors and top-performing executives all know this, which is why they embrace coaching to achieve such extraordinary success. Leading corporations also know this, which is why they encourage coaching for employees at every level. Smart leaders leverage the power of coaching to achieve outcomes that are meaningful, measurable, and attainable.

Our Coaches Will Show You How!

 

We have exciting news! Our live course, STAT: Quick Wins to Get Your Life Back is coming soon! Life is too short to be stretched so thin. Do you want more time to focus on what matters most to you? Our power packed plan fits easily into your busy day! Coaches Gabriella and Jill have taken all their best strategies from coaching hundreds of physicians over multiple years and folded them into one efficient course. You can easily practice these bite-sized strategies on your timeline: anytime, anywhere. Are you ready to invest in yourself, reclaim your time and minimize stress? Click here! https://docworking.com/stat-interest

 

To learn more about DocWorking, visit https://docworking.com

 

Are you a physician who would like to tell your story? Please email Amanda, our producer at Amanda@docworking.com to apply.

 

And if you like our podcast and would like to subscribe and leave us a 5 star review, we would be extremely grateful!

 

We’re everywhere you like to get your podcasts! Apple iTunes, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Google, PlayerFM, ListenNotes, Amazon, YouTube, Podbean

 

Some links in our blogs and show notes are affiliate links, and purchases made via those links may result in small payments to DW. These help toward our production costs. Thank you for supporting DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast!

 

Occasionally, we discuss financial and legal topics. We are not financial or legal professionals. Please consult a licensed professional for financial or legal advice regarding your specific situation.

 

Podcast produced by: Amanda Taran

23: How Meditation & Mindfulness Can Make You a Better Physician with Dr. Antonia Stephen

"I think there are many people who are high achievers who come to a point in their lives where maybe they’ve lost some of that mindfulness and I think a lot of what we do to get to that place challenges our ability to stay mindful. You know, having to multitask all day, being sleep deprived, feeling tired, working very very hard for many many years, we know that that can deplete the ability to be cognitively focused and this is something you can actually do about that.”- Antonia Stephen MD, Massachusetts General Hospital

 

Are you feeling stressed? Struggling to stay focused? Tune in this week as we dive into all things dealing with meditation and mindfulness with Dr. Antonia Stephen MD. 

 

Dr. Stephen is a surgeon and Surgical Director of Wellness at Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital. In this episode, Jill sits down with Dr. Stephen to discuss how meditation and mindfulness can make you a better physician.

 

Dr. Antonia Stephen received her medical degree from Harvard Medical School, completed her general surgery residency at Massachusetts General Hospital, and her surgical fellowship at the Cleveland Clinic, before joining the surgical staff at Massachusetts General Hospital in the Division of Surgical Oncology, where she specializes in surgery of the thyroid, parathyroid and adrenal glands.

 

Excerpts from the show:

“I’ve come around to meditation and mindfulness and it’s something that really helps me in every single aspect of my life. Additionally, it also helps me pivot between all the different things in my life which include, obviously, my work at the hospital, in the operating, out of the operating room, in academics, teaching residents and medical students and at home and even in things like my own athletic pursuits. So there are many different applications of mindfulness focusing on the life of a physician and specifically the life of a surgeon. Having  this practice of meditation and mindfulness in your life, which we do often practice when we have a quiet moment alone in our home or in our office, actually makes us better able to keep that relaxed focused which is where you really want to be in your life when you’re trying to accomplish anything. You’re able to bring that relaxed focus to every aspect of your work. So that’s sort of where I came around to doing this and why I think it’s so important for really anyone with a busy life and certainly for academic physicians.”- Antonia Stephen MD 

 

“I don’t think there is a single person out there, no matter what you’re doing, that couldn’t benefit from feeling more focused and feeling more relaxed when they’re doing things. It’s sort of the sweet spot that we all want to get to. We sometimes talk about it as the flow state and in whatever you’re doing in your life, being in that focused state of mind is no doubt of great benefit to whatever you’re trying to accomplish. Whether you are trying to accomplish a difficult surgery, whether you’re trying to run a meeting or have a conversation with a colleague or whether you’re confronting your angry teenager, being focused and present and relaxed is the absolute best way you can be.”- Antonia Stephen MD

 

“Physicians and in particular surgeons, have also studied the techniques of mindfulness and meditation and how it impacts not just your sense of well-being, not just your stress levels but also your ability to stay focused and perform. There are two places that have studied this closely in residents. One is at University of Indiana, the other is UCSF where they have a center for mindfulness and surgery. What was particularly interesting about the data from the University of Indiana is that they actually looked very closely at technical performance in the skills lab and in particular, in laparoscopic skills. Laparoscopic skills can be a very difficult and frustrating thing to learn how to do. They compared medical students and residents who were attempting to learn these very difficult skills and studied ones that were trained in mindfulness and ones that weren’t and did see differences in their ability to focus throughout these challenging exercises.”- Antonia Stephen MD

 

Book mentioned in the show:

The Knowing-Doing Gap: How Smart Companies Turn Knowledge into Action by Jeffrey Pfeffer & Robert I. Sutton  https://amzn.to/2R9l5fK

 

DocWorking believes the time has come to prioritize the health and wellness of physicians.

Professional coaching is transformational. Elite athletes, award-winning actors and top-performing executives all know this, which is why they embrace coaching to achieve such extraordinary success. Leading corporations also know this, which is why they encourage coaching for employees at every level. Smart leaders leverage the power of coaching to achieve outcomes that are meaningful, measurable, and attainable.

Our Coaches Will Show You How!

 

We have exciting news! Our live course, STAT: Quick Wins to Get Your Life Back is coming soon! Life is too short to be stretched so thin. Do you want more time to focus on what matters most to you? Our power packed plan fits easily into your busy day! Coaches Gabriella and Jill have taken all their best strategies from coaching hundreds of physicians over multiple years and folded them into one efficient course. You can easily practice these bite-sized strategies on your timeline: anytime, anywhere. Are you ready to invest in yourself, reclaim your time and minimize stress? Click here! https://docworking.com/stat-interest

 

To learn more about DocWorking, visit https://docworking.com

 

Are you a physician who would like to tell your story? Please email Amanda, our producer at Amanda@docworking.com to apply.

 

And if you like our podcast and would like to subscribe and leave us a 5 star review, we would be extremely grateful!

 

We’re everywhere you like to get your podcasts! Apple iTunes, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Google, PlayerFM, ListenNotes, Amazon, YouTube, Podbean

 

Some links in our blogs and show notes are affiliate links, and purchases made via those links may result in small payments to DW. These help toward our production costs. Thank you for supporting DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast!

Occasionally, we discuss financial and legal topics. We are not financial or legal professionals. Please consult a licensed professional for financial or legal advice regarding your specific situation.

 

Podcast produced by: Amanda Taran

22: A Magic Solution with Dr. Lilit Garibyan

“Again, it all started with a clinician who understood the problem and was passionate about solving it. She may not have had all the skills to do it but she knew how to work with the research faculty because we had helped her learn the process.”- Lilit Garibyan MD PhD, Harvard Medical School

 

Tune in to hear our last installment with Dr. Lilit Garibyan and discover a groundbreaking concept for clinicians that is leading to amazing breakthroughs. In this episode Jill sits down with Dr. Garibyan to discuss the Magic Wand Initiative. A program that is breaking down walls between clinicians and research faculty and allowing them to work together to come up with solutions to patient problems. Beginning in 2013 when Dr. Rox Anderson approached her about engaging more clinicians in their department in problem-led research, Dr. Garibyan said yes without hesitation after seeing the impact firsthand in her own research. Now the Magic Wand Initiative is off and running and making a difference in the world. Keep an eye out for the curriculum to come to your medical speciality. 

Dr. Garibyan is a  board certified dermatologist who specializes in medical, surgical and cosmetic/laser dermatology. She is also a lecturer in dermatology at Harvard Medical School where she conducts cutting-edge and innovative research in dermatology.

She is the co-founder of the Magic Wand Initiative https://MagicWandInitiative.org

info@magicwandinitiative.org

 

More info here: https://madermatology.com/team/lilit-garibyan-m-d/

 

 

Excerpts from the show:

 

“I’m excited to tell you about our journey in initiating this Magic Wand Initiative. It really started in 2013. My mentor and colleague Dr. Rox Anderson told me that it was his New Year’s resolution in 2013 to engage more clinicians in our department in problem-led research and innovation and he recruited me to join him. I gladly said yes because I was one of those people who took the chance to learn this process of innovation and engage in problem-based innovation and saw firsthand the impact that it was able to have in my life and in my research. So I was more than happy to help teach other clinicians how to engage and learn the process so they could be more empowered in identifying problems and working on solving them collaboratively with other research faculty.” - Lilit Garibyan MD, PhD

 

 

“Can you give us an example or two of one of these patient problems that showed up in this Magic Wand Initiative system that is now headed toward a solution that is going to impact patients?” -Jill Farmer

 

“Yes so I’ll give you two examples. One was a clinical faculty member who had done a lot of work on cellulitis. She brought in the problem of identifying a better objective measure of diagnosing cellulitis as the problem she wants to find the solution for. Currently, Jill, what happens is that cellulitis is very difficult to diagnose. A lot of times we get consulted as dermatologists for diagnosis or patients get misdiagnosed or they get admitted and are given antibiotics for many days unnecessarily when it’s not really cellulitis, it’s something called statis dermatitis. So if we had a better objective measure actually diagnosing this then we wouldn’t spend all the time and money mistreating patients. So she felt that this was something worth solving. So we met with her, we understood the problem in detail, we made what we call a specification sheet which is where we put the criteria that you want your ideal solution to have. From there, we brainstormed with her some strategy and then we connected her with the engineers and the researchers who had the know-how to help her fix this. One thing you have to realize is a clinician doesn’t have time to go work in the lab to do all the engineering for a device to make this happen, but then you link them to work with the research faculty collaboratively and then everybody benefits. The research faculty love it because now they can make a device that is used in clinic that makes their work more clinically applicable.” -Lilit Garibyan MD, PhD

 

“Right, so they aren’t just picking a problem out of a vacuum.” -Jill Farmer

 

“Exactly. They work together and they have a device they test in patients the first round and they are making the second prototype now to take it to clinic so it’s really exciting.” -Lilit Garibyan MD, PhD

 

 

“Cool, and what is the second example that you thought of?” -Jill Farmer

 

“We formed this program into virtual curriculum as well so we now have clinicians all over the U.S. participating in it. So one clinician who was a resident at UC Irvine learned our process because she participated in our curriculum. During the Covid crisis when there was such a huge unmet need of personal protective equipment for clinicians, she actually took what she learned and she worked with engineering faculty at UC Irvine and developed a new way of making PPE’s that are reusable because you’re able to re-sterilize and thousands were created. Her story was covered in the LA Times, she got a huge award from a medical association for this innovative work. And again, it all started with a clinician who understood the problem and was passionate about solving it. She may not have had all the skills to do this but she knew how to work with the research faculty because we had helped her learn the process.” -Lilit Garibyan MD, PhD

 

____________

DocWorking believes the time has come to prioritize the health and wellness of physicians.

Professional coaching is transformational. Elite athletes, award-winning actors and top-performing executives all know this, which is why they embrace coaching to achieve such extraordinary success. Leading corporations also know this, which is why they encourage coaching for employees at every level. Smart leaders leverage the power of coaching to achieve outcomes that are meaningful, measurable, and attainable.

 

Our Coaches Will Show You How!

 

We have exciting news! Our live course, STAT: Quick Wins to Get Your Life Back is coming soon! Life is too short to be stretched so thin. Do you want more time to focus on what matters most to you? Our power packed plan fits easily into your busy day! Coaches Gabriella and Jill have taken all their best strategies from coaching hundreds of physicians over multiple years and folded them into one efficient course. You can easily practice these bite-sized strategies on your timeline: anytime, anywhere. Are you ready to invest in yourself, reclaim your time and minimize stress? Click here! https://docworking.com/stat-interest

 

To learn more about DocWorking, visit https://docworking.com

 

Are you a physician who would like to tell your story? Please email our producer Amanda at Amanda@docworking.com to apply.

 

And if you like our podcast and would like to subscribe and leave us a 5 star review, we would be extremely grateful!

 

We’re everywhere you like to get your podcasts! Apple iTunes, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Google, PlayerFM, ListenNotes, Amazon, YouTube, Podbean

 

Some links in our blogs and show notes are affiliate links, and purchases made via those links may result in small payments to DW. These help toward our production costs. Thank you for supporting DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast!

 

Occasionally, we discuss financial and legal topics. We are not financial or legal professionals. Please consult a licensed professional for financial or legal advice regarding your specific situation.

 

Podcast produced by: Amanda Taran